The Trance in the Studio
The vastness and nuance and intelligent, rough beauty of John Dubrow’s paintings, the rhythmic turmoil which roils their cakes of paint, tempts one to conceive of them as natural wonders. How are such things made? These works sometimes put me in mind of the forces of nature that combine to create hurricanes and mountain ranges. In the deep geography of Dubrow’s works there seems to be no mediation, no polish, no editorial mercy to bridge, for the viewer’s sake, between what Dubrow was moved to make and what Dubrow meant by it. The painter’s long toil — these works require years to complete — is rewarded with an extraordinary immediacy. He does not translate for our sake. We meet him entirely on his ground.
I thought all this before I had ever stood before a proper Dubrow painting. I had seen small oil sketches, the free power of which foreshadowed the force of the full-scale versions. Dubrow’s paintings are enormous, not only in height and width but also in the sculptural thickness of their surfaces and in the demands that they make. A topography of calcified oil rises and falls from one edge of each surface to the other. Seen from the side, uneven protrusions testify to the force of the painter’s impact. The surfaces are like the beaten ground of a paddock in which a wild horse has been penned. The man who made these paintings must have exerted prodigious energy to whip and slice and scratch all this paint so that it seethes the way it does. The edges of Dubrow’s surfaces are never straight because the paint rises and cakes over them, the corners are rounded, there are no clean angles. Like any inch of the natural world, Dubrow’s paintings are not neat. And yet they contain a beautiful order.
John Dubrow’s studio is sheltered in a converted tobacco warehouse twenty minutes outside Manhattan along with some several dozen other artists of various kinds. The complex in which it sits, called Mana Contemporary, strikes the visitor as misleadingly unsuitable for the attainment of transcendent experience: it is made up of several slabs of brick in a gritty, graffitied stretch of Jersey City only a few yards away from the train tracks whose thunder protects against gentrification. The eponymous Mana, Moishe Mana of Moishe’s Moving Business, is perhaps unaware of the condign allusion of his surname. Dubrow’s work is itself like manna, by which I mean it is inexplicable, it seems to have fallen from heaven, and it contains enough to satisfy a variety of appetites. Above all, it must be experienced physically; the effect of its physicality is difficult to describe. The charismatic textures of these dense canvases are a challenge to descriptive language. So is the atmosphere of his studio, with its mixture of solidity and vertigo, of gravity and excitation. Describing it in words is like trying to paint the sensation of tumbling down a flight of stairs. This incongruity is frustrating, and that frustration is precisely what makes the painter’s blood race and his paint hum and bellow. He is trying to describe in paint sensations that can only be felt in life. Something primary, something both sophisticated and atavistic, lives inside that studio. I will try to tell you what this means.

The path from the front doors of Mana Contemporary to the elevator winds past a number of John Chamberlain’s gripping and enigmatic sculptural constructions made from welded scraps of colorful cars. John’s studio is on the fourth floor. The elevator doors open in the middle of a hallway, on the left side of which a glass sheet covers the wall of a large dance studio in which a choreographer was presiding over a practice session. I turned right, walked down a few thin, high corridors lined with enormous iron sliding doors until I reached 411. On the other side of the massive iron door, another world. Paint, paint, paint. Speckles of it and streaks of it and mounds of it. Paint piled high on a table that had once served as a palette but has over the years calcified into a many-colored undulating mass. Paint encrusted on empty paint pails and paint brushes and paint tubes. Stains of paint on the ground, on the tables and the chairs. The smell of paint is thick even in the immense space of the studio. The room is huge. The white walls, way above human height, lose their paint stains as they stretch all the way to the industrial ceiling. Enormous windows, the kinds of windows artists pray for, gape on two stretches of the studio, suffusing the immense space in a big, gentle light. On the day that I visit it is pouring rain outside — the light is soft and strong, like the artist.
Where did he come from and how did he get this way? John Dubrow was born in Salem, Massachusetts in 1958, studied at Syracuse University, Camberwell College of Arts in London, and then the San Francisco Art Institute. Formative years spent in California, Israel, and New York — where he has lived for the past several decades — mark him as a man with many influences and admirations, a man from no place and every significant place. He has painted the landscapes and rooftops of Jerusalem and New York City, in equal parts a creature of the Bible and of Babel. Leaning up against the walls of his studio are portraits —in an especially lyrical picture, the poet Mark Strand peers from behind his folded arms — and landscapes of euphorically vital greens and blues. On some walls crowded cityscapes buzz across from near-abstract combinations of flesh tones. Everything is oil paint.
Paint is John Dubrow’s air and water and food. His commitment to the substance is absolute, almost monastic. He has spent his whole life studying its capabilities and its effects. While I was working on this essay I dreamed that I had to wash pills down with oil paint — to squeeze a tube into my open mouth and toss back two small capsules. His fanaticism is contagious: for John, paint is medicine.
The paint which clings to the towering stretches of what John says are canvases — the paint wholly obscures the surface on which it was settled — impose themselves with great force. They are not violent, but they possess enormous power. Dubrow is very exacting in his observation and in his practice. (He is also slight and soft spoken.)
John rarely uses a paint brush. The paintings are too rough and large and a brush’s texture is limited. As mentioned, he does not use an ordinary palette, but requires an entire table. Near the center of the studio a quarter of a large table is covered in half empty paint tins. The rest of it glistens with the colors which make up the painting with which he is currently wrestling. Often he uses an enormous palette knife to apply the stuff, but he also uses his hands, covered in blue surgical gloves. The masses of paint spread so roughly across the canvas with his knife form heavy planes. These colored planes establish the painting like bricks or sheets of cement. They are strong, weighty, and deeply intelligent.
Tension undergirds this intelligence. That tension is fueled by the force within John fighting for figuration and the force pulling him towards abstraction. The process of creating a painting, for John, is made up entirely of these two compulsions, these two antithetical conceptions of what the painting ought to be, which do battle over and through John as he works. The painting is a record of this agonistic tug of war between figuration and abstraction. He builds up one and then breaks it down in service to the other. “That’s why they take me so long, I think.” Every step forward has to be undone. The artwork is a record of new beginnings. Creation and destruction; creation is destruction.

For hours on that wet, tranquil afternoon we moved from canvas to canvas talking about art. When one asks John questions about his work, he answers in riddles, not because he is being coy but because he is trying to be precise about a process which is largely incommunicable in language.
CM: What’s the difference between pure abstraction and what you’re doing? Is it color and texture?
JD: It’s the difference between kinds of space and form and texture. In pure abstraction those things usually stay on the surface of the picture plane with an even frontality. For me, in my own work I’m trying to get things to jump around back and forth from deep to shallow, from solid to fractured — I want things to seem to be one thing but actually be something else. As far as texture goes, I never think about the buildup of my own surfaces. The thickness develops organically while I’m working, although I do notice them. Most contemporary painters who build up textures use it as a decorative or willfully emotional device.
John is a scholar-painter: he has studied the history of his art, as the books scattered about testify. After many decades mired in the vernaculars of the art world, he invokes its language to defy its axioms. Translation is necessary for the uninitiated: when John talks about applying surface decoratively, he is gesturing towards the strides into flatness and abstraction which were sanctified in part by the ferocious hectoring of critics such as Clement Greenberg, who insisted that art history was Hegelian, that it traveled inexorably, with the force of a logic, out of figuration and into abstraction, and that painting should nevermore strive to communicate three-dimensionality. Modern painting, Greenberg decreed, had to distinguish itself, to justify its own existence, by confining itself to the two-dimensionality of the picture plane:
Three-dimensionality is the province of sculpture. To achieve autonomy, painting has had above all to divest itself of everything it might share with sculpture, and it is in its effort to do this, and not so much — I repeat — to exclude the representational or literary, that painting has made itself abstract.
This edict, issued repeatedly by Greenberg, who considered it his job to influence the art world rather than merely describe it, altered how artists — and the rest of us — conceive of art. Dubrow is still defining himself against the framework that the high church of modernism established. So, while purely abstract artists are not tangling with space and form and color all at the same time, John’s post-abstract but incompletely representational pictures are persistently communicating space and establishing three dimensions.
JD: The only thing I’m interested in is the volume of space, and building and breaking down form at the same time. For instance, this painting [he gestured towards one of two canvases leaning against the wall in front of us] is a painting of two figures falling in Paris.
Eyes widened, I looked intently at the identified object and muttered If you say so. A near-square mass — 50”x58”: John likes large surfaces — of swatches and scrapes of multicolored paint defied narrative explanation. In the bottom right-hand corner a cake had fallen, or was beaten, or was cut away, and a triangular gap of open space yawned between the edge of the canvas and the sheet of paint above it. It looks like the craggy cut of a cliff, so thickly layered was the paint. The painting was composed of colored swatches — some of them solid tones, some vibrating with multicolored flecks. The texture is uniformly uneven, sometimes like gravel, like stucco, like tesserae, like the mottled sides of buildings in beaten-up alleys. There is not a single stretch of smoothness. The dominant, heaviest colors are grayish purples — four of them arranged in slanted, flailing, and stretching masses from the lower left-hand side upwards to the middle of the rightmost edge. A deep blue anchors the left lower corner, grasping up to the upper left. A wide passage of distressed pink presides over the topmost edge. Flesh tones shimmer in fleeting scraps throughout, unsettled, disembodied. Crimson and cadmium scrapes dance in the upper left corner and the bottom right one. The whole thing teems with color in rhythmic, competing movements. This painting of two figures falling is not a painting of two figures falling — it is a painting of the feeling of a fall, the essence of a fall. An impossible thing to put into writing, and an impossible thing to put into paint. John conscripts his viewers into an exacting and mystifying exercise.
JD: I was walking in Paris with my partner Kaye. We were holding hands walking down from Montmartre and she tripped. So when I came back I did a series of paintings of that experience.
CM: How does a painting usually start?
He thought for a moment.
JD: Kaye and I were in the subway last night going to Lincoln Center. We got caught in a human traffic jam underground, people going in every direction shoulder to shoulder. Not a visual experience, a psychological and physical one. Especially after Covid, that physical experience was like a revelation. I instantly had a flash: this is my next painting. Will it be? Maybe. If so I’ll probably go up there to that spot and try to add visual pieces to the inspiration. At other times it’s those same elements, physical and psychological, but predominantly visual which is more straightforward. I can follow the visual but sometimes it gets in the way too, as I usually need to break away from the visual to get to the real experience transformed into paint.
CM: The real experience? You mean the feeling of it?
He nodded.
JD: It’s the feeling but it’s also, well, for me it’s very literal. You don’t see two figures falling, but I see the figures clearly. What I’d like to do in all these paintings is have these opposites collide. I want to be building a form and breaking down a form at the same time. The building of volumetric space and the flattening of that space. So it’s like everything is fighting with itself. I’m always describing something very literal, and then I’m breaking down the very literal. So at different points this painting — all these paintings — were very figurative.
CM: Why are you breaking it down?
JD: Because the intersection of these two things is what interests me. It’s a Cezannist idea. It basically is the same project as Cezanne’s. How do I build this and also have it fall apart and have it become an abstract patterning? I want both at once, in equal intensity.
John is maniacal about studying the past masters. When I was at the studio a large volume about Giovanni Pisano was open and obviously in mid-study. One wouldn’t recognize their styles in his work, but the spirit of the work, the seriousness, the rigor, the reaching for a breakthrough, is analogous. Any student of art who has had their breath taken away by Cezanne’s simultaneity of structure and impression will recognize something in John’s experiments and intuit the harmony that is his goal.
Greenberg, of course, would have bridled at the pronouncement that these two artists share a project. By Greenberg’s lights, “Cezanne sacrificed verisimilitude, or correctness, in order to fit his drawing and design more explicitly to the rectangular shape of the canvas.” Notice the distinction between Greenberg’s understanding of Cezanne’s project and Dubrow’s conception of the same works, the same choices. Both men recognize that, for the purpose of achieving a desired end, Cezanne moved away from traditional representation. In Greenberg’s mind, he did this because he wanted to create a painting fitted properly for a flat surface. Dubrow’s analysis is precisely the opposite: Cezanne, in order to communicate space as it is felt, needed to repeat elements of the volumetric structures he was looking at but also to alter those structures such that the painting could communicate and even depict the vitality of the object. Communicating terrestrial vitality, for Greenberg, is straying from the ideals of modernism, since a flat surface cannot contain a living thing. But when John looks at a Cezanne, figuration and abstraction both contribute to representation, insofar as representation refers not only to the way the subject looks, but also to the way it feels — to the experience of the energy in the scene. It is a mark in favor of John’s view that Cezanne’s earliest paintings lack the movement that vivify his later ones. His earliest paintings were of darkly imagined scenes — a rape, a murder. Only later in life, when he became Cezanne, did he paint exclusively and fanatically from life.
CM: Do you feel, like Cezanne, that you are trying to invent a new kind of painting?
JD: I feel that with every painting I’m constantly trying to push forward beyond what I know I can do. And so they take me several years. This one took me three and a half years because I’ll be working on other paintings simultaneously and also going to see art that will help me break through to a new place in an old work. I went to Italy to see Pisano and when I came back I immediately returned to these figures and these figures became more organic like Pisano’s figures. The movement, there’s nothing static about those statues. And so when this happened here [he gestured towards a part of the canvas] then everything else was very clear to me.
CM: Can you show me where the figures are in these paintings?
JD: Well, there are four figures here. This [he pointed to a passage] is the actor Paul Lazar, this is Joanne Akalitis, this is the actress Wendy vanden Heuvel, and this is Annie B. Parson, who is a choreographer… And there’s a table over there… And the catalyst was the moment when Joanne put her hand on Paul’s shoulder so that was there from the very start.
CM: And would you expect your viewers to think of those four passages as figures?
JD: I don’t care… People tell me they can’t. They say “I have no idea what you’re talking about.” But for me, they’re all… they’re so specific in my mind. In this regard “people” are just a framing mechanism for determining where to put related masses of color on a canvas. But I’m imagining those specific people all the way through no matter how buried in paint they become.
But that’s how I look at Old Master paintings, too. It’s always been this way for me, from the time I was twenty when I was obsessed with Titian. I never saw the narrative. The narrative is only important because you can tell by looking at the painting that the painter really cares about the narrative. But the intense attention is what matters, and however that informs the painting doesn’t make a difference.
CM: Do you want the viewer to be able to see the figures in the paintings? Because I look at this and I want to resist trying to find the figures. I feel that it is inhibiting me from giving myself over to your project.
JD: Well, I do feel like what I’m trying to do is to create a new construction. I don’t want to give you exactly what you already see, I want to give you something else. I’m reconstructing the world and it’s not going to look like the world as you or I commonly experience it. But one of the things about painting figures in this kind of context is… you know, I set up an abstract context and I can’t just put figures into it. It wouldn’t make sense. So basically I’ve had to learn how to reformulate and reimagine what a figure is.
CM: And you need both abstraction and figuration in order to make the painting feel like the experience?
A swift nod.
JD: Yes. I need it to feel exactly like the thing. Normally it has to lose the descriptive element in order to feel like the experience. The miracle of Cezanne, and the miracle that I’m looking for, is that there still is a picture box in Cezanne. By which I mean, there is the traditional conception of the canvas as a window through which you see a comprehensible scene, and there is a picture box here too, but I’m denying it simultaneously.
The “picture box” conception of a painting engages with the canvas as if it is a stage, a proscenium in receding space, on which a scene is set, as in a play, with intelligible figures that are part of a legible narrative. Abstract painting, of course, is nothing like that. I looked around the studio. John’s earliest works were certainly representational, painted in his own patchy and idiosyncratic (and beautiful) realism. As my gaze drifted from the walls closest to the door to the ones near the center of the studio, the images became increasingly unintelligible, increasingly abstract. I confess that the ones closest to me didn’t look at all like picture boxes, and I strained to understand the distance traversed from door to easel. It seemed to me that over the years his pictorial enterprise has been entirely transformed. The new paintings, the ones that loomed directly over me, were making alien, singular demands of the viewer. They radiated a different energy. I needed to learn how to see them. Syncopating to their rhythm, acquiescing to their constraints and standards, required developing new muscles. How did the hand and mind that made the earlier pictures also make these recent works?

I thought for a while about how to formulate a question that might elicit a satisfying answer.
CM: When you destroy it, when you break down the figures, do you know what you’re doing?
JD: No. I have no idea what I’m looking for. I know only what I’m not looking for. I know that I’m looking for the painting to ultimately be a completely free-standing object that reminds me of what I am remembering — because there’s no source material for most of these paintings except my memory. I might do drawings, but I’ll rarely look at those drawings.
John paused for several beats, apparently hesitant to continue. Finally his eyes flicked up to mine and he had the look of someone who was about to reveal something strange and unexpected.
JD: The other thing that’s going on is that eight or nine years ago I began going into a weird… not quite a trance state, but my eyes began blinking really rapidly while I was working. I made a recording of it and sent the video to neuroscientists at NYU and they came over. They tested me while I was painting, with blinking and then without blinking, and they told me that I was somehow going into an increased theta wave state while I am working. Theta waves are like a waking daydream state.
This was startling. But John is not the only artist I know of who painted in a trance. The sculptor Chana Orloff became close friends with Chaim Soutine in the last decade of his short life. (He died in 1943, fifty years old.) She said of him: “He nurtured his idea for a painting for several months and then, when ready, started the work in a fury. He worked with passion, with fever, in a trance, sometimes to the music of some Bach fugue that he played on a phonograph. Once he finished the painting, he was weak, depressed, wiped out.” Soutine himself used to say that, in order for a painting to begin, he needed to be seized irresistibly by a subject. He called this “the miracle.” Between such trances, waiting for the miracle to intercede again, he would stew in sterile agitation.
Perhaps because Soutine called it “the miracle,” or because John’s studio felt overwhelmingly like a religious sanctuary, I interpreted the details about John’s trance as confirmation that his paintings were made in a state of meta-rational or even mystical inspiration.
CM: Do you pray?
JD: No. Well. Right, it’s pretty close. So what happens is that all day long I’m going into that state to block out any rational thought. I used to be a different kind of painter, I used to be a figurative painter. And I’m always fighting that.
CM: Do you feel when you’re inside the trance, or maybe when you come out of it because you’re not conscious of what you’re feeling while you’re still in it, are you communing with something outside yourself? Or is it internal?
JD: It’s inner-directed. The eye blinking is a way to not be able to look out. So I’m looking in at the image that I know is there in the painting.
CM: You said image just now. Is it an image or is it a feeling?
JD: It’s a sense. I know a lot about painting. I’ve spent my life not only painting but looking at painting, so when I go to this painting I don’t need to be aware of what I’m doing. All I need is to be present and I can fall back on it.
I thought about what he said, about how the experience of painting demands that he retreat so deeply inside himself that his body moves to shut out any alien interference. At some point the change in his gaze abolishes the subject-object relationship. John’s testimony paired strangely with what I knew about his obsession with traveling to see paintings. He makes pilgrimages to artworks around the world.
CM: When you travel to go look at paintings, how can that help you as an artist who waits for the trance? Is it that you are going as deeply into their paintings as you try to go into yourself while you’re painting?
JD: Yes, I go into the eye blinking state when I look at other paintings.
I gasped. So the blinking had to be catalyzed by intense concentration, by some sort of raptness. I was reminded of Simone Weil’s remark that “attention, taken to the utmost degree, is prayer.”
CM: What must it be like to have a sense of solidarity with great painters so deep that your own body treats their work as if it were a part of you? And does that feel inward or does that feel like going into them?
JD: It feels like Stendhal syndrome, like a kind of euphoria. It’s this weird mixture of being able to look out but then bringing it inward. Everything is inward.
Stendhal syndrome is a psychosomatic condition wherein exposure to extreme beauty induces physical symptoms, such as chest pains, fainting, and rapid blinking. The condition is named after Stendhal’s report of his visit to the Franciscan church of Santa Croce in Florence, whose sixteen chapels contain an astonishing treasury of Renaissance painting.“I had palpitations of the heart…” Stendhal recalled. “Life was drained from me. I walked with fear of falling.” There are more violent accounts. Six years ago a visitor at the Ufizzi Gallery died of a heart attack in the presence of Botticelli’s Venus. I suppose he died happy.
CM: It strikes me as a kind of mysticism…
JD: Friends often compare it to deep meditation… though of course meditation usually requires stillness, but here I am running around the studio. I think of it as an altered state.
CM: Can you simulate it?
JD: Yes. I can turn the blinking on whenever I want. I can turn it on and off. I’m lucky that I can turn it off.
CM: Does it ever overwhelm you?
JD: There are times when I’ve been here all day and then I’m walking to my car and it’s still happening, and I have to stop myself. I can’t let that happen while I’m driving.
CM: In those moments does it feel like intoxication?
JD: Yeah.
I have seen a video of John painting. Well, painting isn’t the right word exactly. In the clip he is using his hands, throwing them — and his whole body behind them — up against the canvas. A corporeal assault. It looks like intoxication. It doesn’t look remotely meditative.
CM: This area here [I pointed to a passage in the Paris Falling painting] — did you do that with your hands, too?
JD: No, it’s mostly palette knives. Occasionally I use a brush. I also switched over from dominant hand to non-dominant hand just to have a second painter. You’re using a whole different brain circuitry, so that has been a very important part of this whole shift into this kind of work.
A second painter. What an extraordinary thought.
CM: When did you start doing that?
JD: I’ve always been right-handed. After an injury fifteen years ago I had to use my left hand till the right hand healed. Then, six or seven years ago, tendonitis forced me to paint with both hands. After several months of that something shifted: I could comfortably switch from left to right and back, and I noticed that not only was I thinking about space differently but my color sensibility was also quite different. The mark-making was also different, but that was just a motor skill variation.
But I conceive of and treat color and space differently depending on the hand. My color left- handed has a wider range of tone and hue, also a warmer and slightly brighter palette, and a more arbitrary reaching for what seemed to be a more random or less controlled color. The eye blinking certainly helped facilitate that. I think I read somewhere that right hand/left brain is more rational. I followed that model, it seems.
I thought of the Portuguese poet Pessoa’s heteronyms, the pseudonymous identities he invented, complete with names, biographies, and individual styles, in whose distinct voices he would write. Imagine them collaborating on a single project!
CM: When you’re in that state and then come out of it, do you ever feel like you’ve taken the painting away from where it needed to go?
JD: Well, the whole project is this tug between figuration and abstraction, and so I’m constantly losing my way.
CM: So you’re really relying on your past. It’s not just breaking down what you’re putting on, it’s breaking down all the years of study and work that you did before.
JD: Right.
The painters who pushed Western art into modernity all started with a classical education. But most of them moved entirely away from that world. It was a ladder they climbed up and then left behind. Picasso was not fighting with his figuration in his cubism. And he went back into figuration out of cubism. But the two were never alive in him fighting one another in a single work — not the way they are in John’s painting, anyway.
CM: What would happen if you moved beyond that bedrock, if you didn’t need it anymore? Could that happen?
JD: I think that’s the interesting thing in my painting: are these opposites dependent on each other? Could I paint the same things without going back and forth the way I do. The poet David Yezzi was talking about the white painting over there [John pointed across the studio to a far wall] and he said that there are painters who would do that in a day or a week but you wouldn’t have the spirit. It wouldn’t make sense for me — it wouldn’t feel the same, even if it looked the same, to make a painting that way. These canvases become a record of their own composition. Really that’s what they are — they are a record.
CM: The idea that you mentioned earlier that seems central to the whole project is color making space. But then that has nothing to do with narrative. And yet you say that narrative is always central for you.
I was thinking about the difference between conceiving of a painting as an instance of chromatic and spatial relations, and conceiving of it as a story.
JD: It has to do with narrative because the memory is communicated through the color relations. Narrative isn’t essential in painting, but color and form are. I think of all paintings — even purely figurative, utterly non-abstract paintings — in terms of color and spatial relations. When I go to Italy and I spend time with Duccio and Pisano… they seem to me like what I’m trying to do. Like I’m trying to get to what they’re doing through action painting. It’s the spirit of those paintings but with the method of action painting.
The critic Harold Rosenberg christened the New York style of painting which emerged in the mid-twentieth century “action painting.” Action painting was wholly new — which is to say, it was not to be found in Paris. Its practitioners, Pollock most consummately, conceived of painting not as representation but as an act in itself, wholly self-contained and self-sufficient, born of its own inner necessity. Rosenberg explained that “what was to go on the canvas was not a picture but an event.” The act of creation was the record of creation, and of the discoveries made in the thick of it. What appeared on the canvas was a surprise, a series of contingent, rhythmic surprises: “There is no point in an act if you already know what it contains.” In action painting, to paint is to experience something entirely different, entirely its own. “The new painting has broken down every distinction between art and life.” (In this way, at least, Cezanne was a kind of ur-action painter. When Emile Bernard asked him, “Aren’t nature and art different?,” Cezanne proclaimed, “I want to make them the same.”)
Is Dubrow a latter-day action painter? No, because in one crucial sense he works programmatically: he refers to the memory that exists outside him, that he falls into. He wants to create the conditions in paint in which he will feel again what he felt before. At least, part of him wants it that way. But John is indeed a kind of action painter because he knows that he cannot reproduce the old feeling perfectly. The painting will tell him what he feels. “I don’t want another drink,” James McMurtry sings, “I only want that last one again.” John recognizes that he cannot have that last drink again. The slash of his palette knife cannot adequately conjure the whip of the wind on his face no matter how deftly he wields it, and half of him doesn’t want it to do so. Half of him thinks in paint. So the act of creation is its own event, its own bizarre and unpredictable act. He sprints outward to the original memory and then inward toward something strange, some visceral painterliness, which transforms the memory into a new, other thing. Back and forth, back and forth. The canvas is stained with his sweat. The painting is the sweat. Accident, intention; creation, destruction; meditation, activity. All of it at once. Two hands, ten minds.
CM: How much is serendipity part of your work?
JD: Everything is a surprise while working, every mark, and I’m hyperaware of the accidents that happen. Everything emerges from the paint while holding on to the memory, and the fixed ideas about the memory are very strong — and then the serendipitous stuff is when I’m reaching for a random thing which has nothing to do with it, I’ll think okay I’ll try THIS, and that’s when really interesting things happen.
CM: But it still feels like the original thing when you’re done with it?
JD: Yeah. Well, I think it does, but then… when I went back to the place where this memory took place it felt nothing like this. So the memory is transformed through the process of painting. These paintings in a way are all about transformation. They begin with a very concrete memory that then so completely transforms that they become like these living forms. This to me seems like something alive. And even though it’s echoing the original memory, it becomes its own live thing. And it is its own life that has nothing to do with…
CM: But that’s what you mean by painting?
JD: That’s how I think of painting.
CM: What’s interesting is that your “illegible” canvases are completely coherent. But you have to spend time with them —
JD: Yes, they are very slow. You have to really look, wait for them to open up, and not try to resolve the canvas into a comprehensible image but to understand it on its own terms, to recognize the internal coherence. What’s interesting is that in the end they somehow seem inevitable. I know it’s done when it feels like it’s become what it wants to be and when it gets to that place… well, it shuts off, I mean it stops inviting me in and psychologically they shrink.
CM: Because there are no boundaries while you’re painting it?
JD: Right. There are no boundaries for my brain. My brain is awakened by it and I can get into it and then when it reaches coherence it shuts me out and I have to stop.
CM: So you know when it’s done?
JD: There are a lot of false endings because it’ll shut me out and I’ll stop and then I’ll look at it again and it’s open again. But in the end, when the painting shrinks, and I turn around it, it’s startling to see that suddenly the painting is completely contained —
CM: Does that feel like a relief? Or does it feel like being shut out?
JD: No, no. It feels like it’s finally taken on its own life. I’m not part of it anymore. I feel like I’ve taken myself out of it. I am not in there anymore. I have a memory of doing all this stuff to it, but I don’t know how that happened, and whatever force was moving through me, it doesn’t need me anymore.

